Addressed To Anyone Who Thinks Downvotes Without Reviews is "Ok"

SO.
I have a bone to pick with you.
Yes, you.
You who listens to my remixes and rates low without any comment at all. It's driving me insane, and I'll tell you why.
I put a lot of effort into my work. Lots of artists on here do. There are also lots of artists who DON'T put a lot of effort into their work. That's why the rating and reviewing system was made, so that the artistic community that we support here on Newgrounds can be critiqued by peers and audience alike to become better at what we do. I make a point to whenever I view a flash or listen to a song to rate it and I will admit to not leaving a review on everything I go through, but I do make a point of reviewing everything that I give a low score. Reviews that say "Great job!" or "10/10" or whatever are wonderful to receive, but it's the reviews with the critiquing that are of most value. If you let me know what you didn't like about the song I did, then I can listen to what you have to say about it, decide whether or not I agree, and incorporate that thought into my next song. But when you don't leave a review after giving me a low score, it drives my analytical brain crazy. I have to wonder what about the song makes it deserve such a low score. I also begin wondering if the only reason you're giving it a bad score is to further your own score. That's cowardly, and what goes around comes around.

Even if you can't think of what to say about it that you don't like, PM or review me and tell me just that. If you're concerned about hurting someones feelings, it's unwarranted--anyone who creates and shares should be open to scrutiny. If you feel like you just don't want to, that's lazy, inconsiderate, and an assault on the very core of the creative process.

So I'm just asking--from one human being to another: If you don't like something, tell me why.
(Lurkers excluded, though that's a whole other issue there.)

***Disclaimer: Statements above about why the rating and reviewing system was created are a reflection of my personal opinions about the site, and have not been influenced or corroborated with by the actual creators of Newgrounds.**

Comments

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S3C 2011-06-21 19:47:57

"I put a lot of effort into my work. Lots of artists on here do. There are also lots of artists who DON'T put a lot of effort into their work."

Effort =/= Quality

There's no way to calculate or know how much effort someone puts into a piece of work. If a piece of art sucks, it sucks. We can make assumptions using how intricate, professional, large a project is as a basis, but in the end it's only the author who knows how much effort goes into a piece of work. And even then, what may be considered effort to them may not be considered effort to other people.

A lot of the time the music that contains the least amount of effort is in fact the most musical. Ego, technical capabilities, insecurities about detail are gone, and an artists energy can be focused on the craft. It's all about effortless mastery (which is also a book by Kenny Werner). Of course it takes tons and tons of effort to get to a certain level but the final product itself may not.

Aside from how hard one may work being irrelevant, I otherwise agree with your post. It would be nice if the voting could be put away with and the scores were based using reviews alone. And it's always nicer (well...more helpful) to receive critiques over compliments.

I actually had a similar argument with liljim about this three years ago. Unfortunately, this kind of suggestion doesnt fit the best interest of this site. Newgrounds isn't primarily a ground for useful critique, but moreso for its viewers. Not everybody has the time to leave a review and get into a debate about why a flash is good or not, it's much easier to remain quiet and just press a button. It also looks better for a page when it reads "x song has 1241246 votes" than "x song has 130 reviews".

You may not be suggesting that voting should be removed, but if a review was to have value, there's not much point in having the same voting system.

Don't let your "analytical brain" make assumptions. People vote zero to move their songs higher in the charts, people vote zero because they honestly think the song sucks, people vote zero just 'cause, etc. are entirely unfounded assumptions. An unexplained vote has neglible value, and thus is not worth worrying about. Besides, I don't care if you happen to be Ludwig-Vanfucking-Beethoven , you'll always will find people who don't enjoy what you do.

Maybe the next redesign will bring some changes, who

S3C 2011-06-21 19:48:33

knows. (Damn these new comment character limits lol)

VGSongbird 2011-06-21 19:48:33

I agree with what you are saying that Effort is not equivalent to Quality; but let me try to put you in my shoes here real quick. I spend hours/months/years on a piece before uploading it. Not the musical part, that comes instantly to me. Hearing the music in my head doesn't take that long, but putting note after note into a piece on a computer takes serious time. I am frustrated that my work is not being critiqued, but is just losing value every time some person comes along and votes "0" without telling me why--it's almost as if all that time I spent is wasted. Maybe Newgrounds isn't the best place for me to be submitting my work because of this. And I think something is lost between Flash views and Audio listens: for me, listens doesn't matter. And maybe that's the part of my attitude I need to change.
I dunno. Also, I may just be blowing off steam. It's always right before a Wednesday that my music takes dives, and I refuse to stoop to the level of those who just claw there way to the boards.
Anyways, I think you've made some good points here. I would love to see this site change in terms of only review scores count. But that's not going to happen.
Thanks for keeping me in perspective :3

Keric 2011-06-21 21:43:30

Ellebirdy, you're on the internet. You produce wonderful music, beautiful sounds, and it's great. You're great. But this is you. This is not anyone else. People down vote, yes. People up vote, yes. But are people going to review things in a detailed sense, picking apart and breaking down every part of a flash movie or a song or a game, just to explain why? No, they aren't.

There are going to be lazy people who just vote. It's going to happen. Just like there are people in the world who are over-weight and are going to keep eating, and there are going to be people in the world who like to keep things simple. Most of Newgrounds won't give a review unless they like something. They'll just view, watch/listen, and rate. Why? Because they're simple. Newgrounds is simple. That's not something you can change. You can HOPE for change, but it's not something that is going to change, be it easily or hardly or anything else.

Your effort to address the issue is to be applauded and such, but you aren't the first music artist or flash artist or normal artistic artist. In the end, logically, this, to Newgrounds, is just another one of the general "complaints" of people who down vote. Tom isn't going to change the rating/review system to that of YouTubes where every music/flash/art submission would have a like/dislike system and comments. In the end, this is one of the things that you as a person and a creator of music will have to bear and grin through.

Everyone will have a reason to vote zero, vote five, and etcetera. Be it simple or intricate, much like S3C explained above. And he made a good note.

It's sort of, being honest here, stupid, to tell people that down voting without leaving a review is okay. But if you had to write a review in order to vote, you probably wouldn't have votes or reviews in this place at all, and Newgrounds wouldn't have bustled up into this big giant lovable hate-able place. Because this sort of thing is more really your opinion of how things should be, when they aren't.

But honestly, I can understand how you feel and what you're saying, and that's still commendable.

And as to your response to S3C about the difference between audio and flash listens, it's true. A significant difference. Because more people come here to watch something than to listen to something. But if this is all a problem, then Newgrounds probably isn't the place for

Keric 2011-06-21 21:53:00

But your music is still great, and you must put a lot of effort and work into your songs, tweaking them and making sure they're perfect, and despite the people who zero-bomb songs and flashes, you have to notice that there are others who like your music, and whether your music is close to a 5.0 or a 0.1 doesn't matter, but you have to notice what the people are saying.

My only personal opinion is that I hope you grin and bear it and just try to keep making good music, Elle.

frysayshi2 2011-06-22 12:49:36

i often rate low without leaving a review (not on your stuff you are awesome) because i don't know anything about that stuff or how to improve it i just know what is good and what isn't (in my opinion anyway)